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	<title>Comments on: Heinlein, Plato, Voting, Servitude, and Obama</title>
	<atom:link href="http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/</link>
	<description>Conservatism for punks.</description>
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		<title>By: Jacob T. Levy</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-24361</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob T. Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/#comment-24361</guid>
		<description>Clever, clever x.trapnel!  Well done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clever, clever x.trapnel!  Well done.</p>
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		<title>By: x. trapnel</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-24293</link>
		<dc:creator>x. trapnel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:34:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/#comment-24293</guid>
		<description>Against JTL&#039;s point, one could say that, actually, DC seems a better candidate for statehood according to his own &lt;a href=&quot;http://ssrn.com/abstract=739448&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;separation of loyalties&quot;&lt;/a&gt; argument than, well, most of our current states.  Perversely enough, I suspect that DC&#039;s anomalous political status, in addition to simply being an urban center, have generated a sense of place and community (&#039;taxation without representation!&#039;) stronger than that of, say, New York *as a state* (NYC-dwellers probably feel more commonality with Chicagoans than those in, I dunno, those empty spaces by Lake Erie, whatever they are). Moreover, granting DC statehood would be advantageous precisely because it would diminish the overrepresentation of rural interests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Against JTL&#8217;s point, one could say that, actually, DC seems a better candidate for statehood according to his own <a href="http://ssrn.com/abstract=739448" rel="nofollow">&#8220;separation of loyalties&#8221;</a> argument than, well, most of our current states.  Perversely enough, I suspect that DC&#8217;s anomalous political status, in addition to simply being an urban center, have generated a sense of place and community (&#8216;taxation without representation!&#8217;) stronger than that of, say, New York *as a state* (NYC-dwellers probably feel more commonality with Chicagoans than those in, I dunno, those empty spaces by Lake Erie, whatever they are). Moreover, granting DC statehood would be advantageous precisely because it would diminish the overrepresentation of rural interests.</p>
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		<title>By: jenny</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-24232</link>
		<dc:creator>jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:22:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/#comment-24232</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;if we’re to infer a deliberate consensual decision not to live in Maryland from their decision to live in DC, then why should we also not infer a deliberate consensual decision to live in a non-state?&lt;/i&gt;

that sounds suspiciously like the &quot;love it or leave it&quot; argument, leaving no room for those who love it but want to change it.  the native dc statehood movement should be reason enough to not infer a preference on the part of dc residents for their home to remain a non-state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>if we’re to infer a deliberate consensual decision not to live in Maryland from their decision to live in DC, then why should we also not infer a deliberate consensual decision to live in a non-state?</i></p>
<p>that sounds suspiciously like the &#8220;love it or leave it&#8221; argument, leaving no room for those who love it but want to change it.  the native dc statehood movement should be reason enough to not infer a preference on the part of dc residents for their home to remain a non-state.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob T. Levy</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-24227</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob T. Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/#comment-24227</guid>
		<description>&quot;this argument would carry more weight if the resident population of DC actually were the federal government. as it is, a) most federal government employees who work in DC are not domiciled there; and b) those who are make up a small fraction of the DC population.&quot;

I know-- which is why I think that repatriation is better than the status quo.  That the DC residents don&#039;t want it is kind of relevant, but cuts in more than one direction-- if we&#039;re to infer a deliberate consensual decision not to live in Maryland from their decision to live in DC, then why should we also not infer a deliberate consensual decision to live in a non-state?  

Still seems to me that DC&#039;s anomalous separateness is an artefact of its separate purpose and non-statehood, and that if it has lost the separate purpose and wants statehood, then its anomalous separateness isn&#039;t entitled to any particular presumption of immutability.

[and re the rest: mea culpa.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;this argument would carry more weight if the resident population of DC actually were the federal government. as it is, a) most federal government employees who work in DC are not domiciled there; and b) those who are make up a small fraction of the DC population.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know&#8211; which is why I think that repatriation is better than the status quo.  That the DC residents don&#8217;t want it is kind of relevant, but cuts in more than one direction&#8211; if we&#8217;re to infer a deliberate consensual decision not to live in Maryland from their decision to live in DC, then why should we also not infer a deliberate consensual decision to live in a non-state?  </p>
<p>Still seems to me that DC&#8217;s anomalous separateness is an artefact of its separate purpose and non-statehood, and that if it has lost the separate purpose and wants statehood, then its anomalous separateness isn&#8217;t entitled to any particular presumption of immutability.</p>
<p>[and re the rest: mea culpa.]</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Seavey</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-24224</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Seavey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/#comment-24224</guid>
		<description>If it&#039;s any consolation, I&#039;m told New York is likely dispatching a carpooling quartet of _antiwar_ paleolibertarian/paleocon types to Maryland this weekend for a conference on Mencken, namely my girlfriend Helen, her roommate Richard Spencer, Taki Theodoracopulos, and John Derbyshire.  If that doesn&#039;t produce an anecdote, I will be disappointed.  They may also foment secessionist feelings wherever they go.  Complex world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it&#8217;s any consolation, I&#8217;m told New York is likely dispatching a carpooling quartet of _antiwar_ paleolibertarian/paleocon types to Maryland this weekend for a conference on Mencken, namely my girlfriend Helen, her roommate Richard Spencer, Taki Theodoracopulos, and John Derbyshire.  If that doesn&#8217;t produce an anecdote, I will be disappointed.  They may also foment secessionist feelings wherever they go.  Complex world.</p>
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		<title>By: jenny</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-24223</link>
		<dc:creator>jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/#comment-24223</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;in effect, letting the central government count twice, once as the overarching decisionmaker and once by giving it two votes in the Senate and one in the House&lt;/i&gt; [jacob]

this argument would carry more weight if the resident population of DC actually were the federal government.  as it is, a) most federal government employees who work in DC are not domiciled there; and b) those who are make up a small fraction of the DC population.  

i think you&#039;d find stiff resistance against repatriating DC to MD at this point - DC citizens who want to be MD citizens already move to PG county sua sponte. (&lt;i&gt;yes&lt;/i&gt;, this is a deliberate gross generalization and snide comment about PG.)

&lt;i&gt;When you’re not spending your own money _or_ blood, it’s much easier to find reasons to go to war.&lt;/i&gt; [todd]

ahh, that must explain why so many of my libertarian friends were so gung-ho about sending my military friends &amp; family off to the quagmire of iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>in effect, letting the central government count twice, once as the overarching decisionmaker and once by giving it two votes in the Senate and one in the House</i> [jacob]</p>
<p>this argument would carry more weight if the resident population of DC actually were the federal government.  as it is, a) most federal government employees who work in DC are not domiciled there; and b) those who are make up a small fraction of the DC population.  </p>
<p>i think you&#8217;d find stiff resistance against repatriating DC to MD at this point &#8211; DC citizens who want to be MD citizens already move to PG county sua sponte. (<i>yes</i>, this is a deliberate gross generalization and snide comment about PG.)</p>
<p><i>When you’re not spending your own money _or_ blood, it’s much easier to find reasons to go to war.</i> [todd]</p>
<p>ahh, that must explain why so many of my libertarian friends were so gung-ho about sending my military friends &amp; family off to the quagmire of iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Seavey</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-24207</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Seavey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/#comment-24207</guid>
		<description>Interesting point -- and for similar reasons, I think we&#039;d see a far more peaceful world if there were never any conscription and, more radically, if armies had to be paid for voluntarily instead of through taxation.  When you&#039;re not spending your own money _or_ blood, it&#039;s much easier to find reasons to go to war.  When hiring your own mercenary army, you&#039;re more likely to be cautious and frugal. 

If Obama turned out to be a covert radical after all, and his radicalism took the form of dismantling the military-industrial complex, I could live with that.  Instead, more likely, the Bush-era military/security apparatus will remain, and a stepped-up assault on the domestic front will begin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting point &#8212; and for similar reasons, I think we&#8217;d see a far more peaceful world if there were never any conscription and, more radically, if armies had to be paid for voluntarily instead of through taxation.  When you&#8217;re not spending your own money _or_ blood, it&#8217;s much easier to find reasons to go to war.  When hiring your own mercenary army, you&#8217;re more likely to be cautious and frugal. </p>
<p>If Obama turned out to be a covert radical after all, and his radicalism took the form of dismantling the military-industrial complex, I could live with that.  Instead, more likely, the Bush-era military/security apparatus will remain, and a stepped-up assault on the domestic front will begin.</p>
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		<title>By: Dirtyrottenvarmint</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-24205</link>
		<dc:creator>Dirtyrottenvarmint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/#comment-24205</guid>
		<description>Todd, in the Starship Troopers polity, _serving_ members of the military are forbidden from voting.  The only members of society who vote are _former_ members of the military.  This arrangement preserves civilian control of the military.

One question all this should raise is why exactly we all believe that civilian control of the military is preferable to the alternative.  To the extent we want to avoid hastily going to war, those who are the most risk of dying in one  would seem to be, rationally, the least likely to vote in favor of fighting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd, in the Starship Troopers polity, _serving_ members of the military are forbidden from voting.  The only members of society who vote are _former_ members of the military.  This arrangement preserves civilian control of the military.</p>
<p>One question all this should raise is why exactly we all believe that civilian control of the military is preferable to the alternative.  To the extent we want to avoid hastily going to war, those who are the most risk of dying in one  would seem to be, rationally, the least likely to vote in favor of fighting.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob T. Levy</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-24203</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob T. Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:30:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/#comment-24203</guid>
		<description>I favor repatriation of as much of residential DC as is feasible to MD (mainly MD these days, I suppose) for reasons of fairness to voters-- but, like Todd, think that the center of federal authority shouldn&#039;t also be a state.  To the degree that DC&#039;s status as a neutral meeting ground and the site for the uppermost level of government has been supplanted by its status as just a place where a bunch of people live, the justification for the District as a separate entity has been undermined.  We could fix that through repatriation of the residential areas; or we could fix it by abolishing the District altogether as a separate entity, repatriating the whole thing, and treating federal land within it like federal land within any other state.  

I can&#039;t see any justification for leaving DC intact and making it a state, and the Founders&#039; reason for not doing so (in effect, letting the central government count twice, once as the overarching decisionmaker and once by giving it two votes in the Senate and one in the House) still seems sound enough to me.  The reasons for statehood are also just as good reasons for complete repatriation; DC&#039;s separate existence was premised on it *not* being a state, and the two should rise or fall together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I favor repatriation of as much of residential DC as is feasible to MD (mainly MD these days, I suppose) for reasons of fairness to voters&#8211; but, like Todd, think that the center of federal authority shouldn&#8217;t also be a state.  To the degree that DC&#8217;s status as a neutral meeting ground and the site for the uppermost level of government has been supplanted by its status as just a place where a bunch of people live, the justification for the District as a separate entity has been undermined.  We could fix that through repatriation of the residential areas; or we could fix it by abolishing the District altogether as a separate entity, repatriating the whole thing, and treating federal land within it like federal land within any other state.  </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t see any justification for leaving DC intact and making it a state, and the Founders&#8217; reason for not doing so (in effect, letting the central government count twice, once as the overarching decisionmaker and once by giving it two votes in the Senate and one in the House) still seems sound enough to me.  The reasons for statehood are also just as good reasons for complete repatriation; DC&#8217;s separate existence was premised on it *not* being a state, and the two should rise or fall together.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Seavey</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-24202</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Seavey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/20/heinlein-plato-voting-servitude-and-obama/#comment-24202</guid>
		<description>The Founders intended to diminish the capital&#039;s self-serving political power slightly by having it be separate from the states.  I see no compelling reason to change that but think it&#039;s a fairly marginal issue.  (I just want tax cuts, budget cuts, and deregulation, which is apparently far too much to ask.)

I would be willing to take DC&#039;s status up an even greater notch, though, making it a separate, sovereign country -- one with authority _only_ over its own geographic area.  That would solve many, many problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Founders intended to diminish the capital&#8217;s self-serving political power slightly by having it be separate from the states.  I see no compelling reason to change that but think it&#8217;s a fairly marginal issue.  (I just want tax cuts, budget cuts, and deregulation, which is apparently far too much to ask.)</p>
<p>I would be willing to take DC&#8217;s status up an even greater notch, though, making it a separate, sovereign country &#8212; one with authority _only_ over its own geographic area.  That would solve many, many problems.</p>
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