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	<title>Comments on: The Personal Is Not the Political &#8212; In Fact, Almost Nothing Is</title>
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	<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/17/the-personal-is-not-the-political-in-fact-almost-nothing-is/</link>
	<description>Conservatism for punks.</description>
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		<title>By: Positive Liberty &#187; There Is Almost No Such Thing as Thin Libertarianism</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/17/the-personal-is-not-the-political-in-fact-almost-nothing-is/comment-page-1/#comment-24233</link>
		<dc:creator>Positive Liberty &#187; There Is Almost No Such Thing as Thin Libertarianism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/17/the-personal-is-not-the-political-in-fact-almost-nothing-is/#comment-24233</guid>
		<description>[...] This, though is the point of divergence: To thin libertarianism, cultural values outside of the basic rights structure do not matter. Set up a proper regime of negative rights, and the thin libertarian&#8217;s job is done. Todd Seavey has been championing this position in the last couple of weeks, most recently here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This, though is the point of divergence: To thin libertarianism, cultural values outside of the basic rights structure do not matter. Set up a proper regime of negative rights, and the thin libertarian&#8217;s job is done. Todd Seavey has been championing this position in the last couple of weeks, most recently here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck-chillout</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/17/the-personal-is-not-the-political-in-fact-almost-nothing-is/comment-page-1/#comment-24150</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck-chillout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/17/the-personal-is-not-the-political-in-fact-almost-nothing-is/#comment-24150</guid>
		<description>Jesus-humping-Christ, Todd, will you quit lionizing the Amish?

They&#039;ve transformed child abuse into a way of life:

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2008/07/15/escaping-the-amish-part-1/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesus-humping-Christ, Todd, will you quit lionizing the Amish?</p>
<p>They&#8217;ve transformed child abuse into a way of life:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2008/07/15/escaping-the-amish-part-1/" rel="nofollow">http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2008/07/15/escaping-the-amish-part-1/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Russell Hanneken</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/17/the-personal-is-not-the-political-in-fact-almost-nothing-is/comment-page-1/#comment-24066</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Hanneken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/17/the-personal-is-not-the-political-in-fact-almost-nothing-is/#comment-24066</guid>
		<description>I was about to recommend that Todd read Chandran Kukathas, but I see Micha Ghertner has beat me to the punch.  So I&#039;ll just second Micha&#039;s recommendation and point out that Kukathas has written an excellent book called &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Politics/PoliticalTheory/PoliticalPhilosophy/?view=usa&amp;ci=9780199219209&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Liberal Archipelago&lt;/a&gt; that argues somewhat along the lines Todd does in this post.

&quot;Thick libertarianism&quot; of the sort Micha advocates makes sense if your goal is to spread freedom to others while maintaining a &quot;truce&quot; of the sort Todd brought up.  That said, I still think it&#039;s important to maintain a thin &lt;em&gt;concept of liberty&lt;/em&gt;, for the sake of promoting clear thinking and avoiding unnecessary confusion.  Anyone who&#039;s not convinced of that should read Daniel Klein&#039;s essay &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://mises.org/reasonpapers/pdf/27/rp_27_1.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mere Libertarianism&lt;/a&gt;,&quot; which I think of as the ultimate reply to those libertarians who try to expand the concept of &lt;i&gt;liberty&lt;/i&gt; to include everything they think is good and important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was about to recommend that Todd read Chandran Kukathas, but I see Micha Ghertner has beat me to the punch.  So I&#8217;ll just second Micha&#8217;s recommendation and point out that Kukathas has written an excellent book called <a href="http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Politics/PoliticalTheory/PoliticalPhilosophy/?view=usa&amp;ci=9780199219209" rel="nofollow">The Liberal Archipelago</a> that argues somewhat along the lines Todd does in this post.</p>
<p>&#8220;Thick libertarianism&#8221; of the sort Micha advocates makes sense if your goal is to spread freedom to others while maintaining a &#8220;truce&#8221; of the sort Todd brought up.  That said, I still think it&#8217;s important to maintain a thin <em>concept of liberty</em>, for the sake of promoting clear thinking and avoiding unnecessary confusion.  Anyone who&#8217;s not convinced of that should read Daniel Klein&#8217;s essay &#8220;<a href="http://mises.org/reasonpapers/pdf/27/rp_27_1.pdf" rel="nofollow">Mere Libertarianism</a>,&#8221; which I think of as the ultimate reply to those libertarians who try to expand the concept of <i>liberty</i> to include everything they think is good and important.</p>
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		<title>By: The personal is not the political &#171; Muse Free</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/17/the-personal-is-not-the-political-in-fact-almost-nothing-is/comment-page-1/#comment-24026</link>
		<dc:creator>The personal is not the political &#171; Muse Free</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/17/the-personal-is-not-the-political-in-fact-almost-nothing-is/#comment-24026</guid>
		<description>[...] As Todd Seavey puts it in this excellent post: Libertarianism’s chief strength, then, has always been in recognizing the vast gulf between, on one hand, myriad, never-ending social complaints (along with the conflicting social philosophies built around them) and, on the other hand, the minuscule and tightly constrained range of things that rise (or, if you prefer, fall) to the level of political/legal complaints. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As Todd Seavey puts it in this excellent post: Libertarianism’s chief strength, then, has always been in recognizing the vast gulf between, on one hand, myriad, never-ending social complaints (along with the conflicting social philosophies built around them) and, on the other hand, the minuscule and tightly constrained range of things that rise (or, if you prefer, fall) to the level of political/legal complaints. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Ghertner</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/17/the-personal-is-not-the-political-in-fact-almost-nothing-is/comment-page-1/#comment-24024</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Ghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 06:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toddseavey.com/2008/11/17/the-personal-is-not-the-political-in-fact-almost-nothing-is/#comment-24024</guid>
		<description>Todd,

I share your belief in the importance of letting local/tribal/traditional cultures be left alone to do their own thing, in the sense that they should not be physically forced to change by a benevolent imperialist power. I hold this belief for pragmatic truce reasons you mention.

I would even take the position further than you do: In many cases, it is not wise to physically interfere with other cultural practices &lt;i&gt;even when those practices explicitly violate property rights&lt;/i&gt;, despite us being justified in doing so. (For an explanation of where I&#039;m coming from, see Chandran Kukathas&#039; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mises.org/journals/scholar/libertarian.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Two Constructions of Libertarianism&lt;/a&gt;, which touches on many of the same issues as Jacob Levy&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://entitledtoanopinion.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/liberalismsdivide.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Liberalism&#039;s Divide&lt;/a&gt;.)

But this doesn&#039;t mean that libertarians &lt;i&gt;as&lt;/i&gt; libertarians have to or should keep silent about cultural practices we deem morally praise- or blame-worthy. Thick libertarianism is that much more important when you adopt a &quot;Federation of Liberty&quot; over a &quot;Union of Liberty&quot; approach, to use Kukathas&#039; language, or when you adopt a pluralist over a rationalist approach, to use Levy&#039;s. The only way to convince other cultures that liberty is worth preserving is by engaging them in that argument, and rooting out those aspects of their culture that are inimical to freedom. Removing benevolent imperialism from the libertarian tool-kit makes the tool of peaceful but critical persuasion all the more necessary.

If the Saudis want to keep their women dressed in beekeeper costumes, I don&#039;t think it would be wise for libertarians to physically interfere with them, but we might want to persuade them that this is a bad idea, if for no other reason than dissenting women are likely to be physically attacked if they don&#039;t comply.

Children indoctrinated in intensely religious environments may never fully develop their capacity for autonomous consent precisely because of their lack of exposure to other options. Libertarians, as pluralists, have an interest in exposing these other options and persuading the sheltered that theirs is not the only way to live, if for no other reason than to better maintain the pluralistic pragmatic truce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd,</p>
<p>I share your belief in the importance of letting local/tribal/traditional cultures be left alone to do their own thing, in the sense that they should not be physically forced to change by a benevolent imperialist power. I hold this belief for pragmatic truce reasons you mention.</p>
<p>I would even take the position further than you do: In many cases, it is not wise to physically interfere with other cultural practices <i>even when those practices explicitly violate property rights</i>, despite us being justified in doing so. (For an explanation of where I&#8217;m coming from, see Chandran Kukathas&#8217; <a href="http://www.mises.org/journals/scholar/libertarian.pdf" rel="nofollow">Two Constructions of Libertarianism</a>, which touches on many of the same issues as Jacob Levy&#8217;s <a href="http://entitledtoanopinion.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/liberalismsdivide.pdf" rel="nofollow">Liberalism&#8217;s Divide</a>.)</p>
<p>But this doesn&#8217;t mean that libertarians <i>as</i> libertarians have to or should keep silent about cultural practices we deem morally praise- or blame-worthy. Thick libertarianism is that much more important when you adopt a &#8220;Federation of Liberty&#8221; over a &#8220;Union of Liberty&#8221; approach, to use Kukathas&#8217; language, or when you adopt a pluralist over a rationalist approach, to use Levy&#8217;s. The only way to convince other cultures that liberty is worth preserving is by engaging them in that argument, and rooting out those aspects of their culture that are inimical to freedom. Removing benevolent imperialism from the libertarian tool-kit makes the tool of peaceful but critical persuasion all the more necessary.</p>
<p>If the Saudis want to keep their women dressed in beekeeper costumes, I don&#8217;t think it would be wise for libertarians to physically interfere with them, but we might want to persuade them that this is a bad idea, if for no other reason than dissenting women are likely to be physically attacked if they don&#8217;t comply.</p>
<p>Children indoctrinated in intensely religious environments may never fully develop their capacity for autonomous consent precisely because of their lack of exposure to other options. Libertarians, as pluralists, have an interest in exposing these other options and persuading the sheltered that theirs is not the only way to live, if for no other reason than to better maintain the pluralistic pragmatic truce.</p>
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