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	<title>Comments on: The Gay Marriage Question, Plus Drugs and Grey Areas</title>
	<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/</link>
	<description>Conservatism for punks.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 08:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Perry</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-23384</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 04:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-23384</guid>
					<description>She doesn't share my last name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She doesn&#8217;t share my last name.
</p>
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		<title>by: Todd Seavey</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-23368</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 22:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-23368</guid>
					<description>Goodbye and good luck in all your endeavors, Metzgers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goodbye and good luck in all your endeavors, Metzgers.
</p>
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		<title>by: Perry</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-23361</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 20:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-23361</guid>
					<description>That was my wife, Todd. She reads the things I post on the net and got somewhat miffed by your original post. I suppose I'll have to avoid your events from now on, because I'm not going anywhere that she isn't welcome.

I read her reply before she posted it. It was quite legitimate and used no unreasonable rhetorical techniques.

I can see why you didn't like it -- it made you look like a bigot by the simple expedient of replacing "gay" with "interracial" appropriately in your original post. This would not have worked if your original message hadn't already expressed what I can only characterize as unreasonable sentiments.

I can understand your reaction. No one wants to think that of themselves. We would all like to feel our personal prejudices do not reflect hidden bigotries. The mature person, however, tries to learn from the experience when the image in the mirror is unpleasant to view.

Perhaps I'll let people know elsewhere if she puts it up on another blog. It was a good example of the technique, and not the least bit impolite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was my wife, Todd. She reads the things I post on the net and got somewhat miffed by your original post. I suppose I&#8217;ll have to avoid your events from now on, because I&#8217;m not going anywhere that she isn&#8217;t welcome.</p>
<p>I read her reply before she posted it. It was quite legitimate and used no unreasonable rhetorical techniques.</p>
<p>I can see why you didn&#8217;t like it &#8212; it made you look like a bigot by the simple expedient of replacing &#8220;gay&#8221; with &#8220;interracial&#8221; appropriately in your original post. This would not have worked if your original message hadn&#8217;t already expressed what I can only characterize as unreasonable sentiments.</p>
<p>I can understand your reaction. No one wants to think that of themselves. We would all like to feel our personal prejudices do not reflect hidden bigotries. The mature person, however, tries to learn from the experience when the image in the mirror is unpleasant to view.</p>
<p>Perhaps I&#8217;ll let people know elsewhere if she puts it up on another blog. It was a good example of the technique, and not the least bit impolite.
</p>
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		<title>by: Todd Seavey</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-23359</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 19:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-23359</guid>
					<description>I deleted the post in which you altered a passage of mine (albeit with brackets denoting the edits, I realize) to sound like an anti-interracial-marriage argument.  I'm sure you're a very decent, intelligent, well-meaning person, but that does verge on the spammy/hacky, so I'm going to just politely -- and without animosity -- ask that you not post again or seek to contact me (under any name), and I hope you'll respect that request.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I deleted the post in which you altered a passage of mine (albeit with brackets denoting the edits, I realize) to sound like an anti-interracial-marriage argument.  I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re a very decent, intelligent, well-meaning person, but that does verge on the spammy/hacky, so I&#8217;m going to just politely &#8212; and without animosity &#8212; ask that you not post again or seek to contact me (under any name), and I hope you&#8217;ll respect that request.
</p>
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		<title>by: Calista</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-23355</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-23355</guid>
					<description>Sorry, I'm not entirely clear on your position here. It seems like you're arguing that a minority segment of the population should be satisfied with second-class treatment because the alternative is shaking up the traditional ideas of bigots. 

But you can't possibly mean that, can you? You're a libertarian, right? Someone who believes in equality and freedom for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. Right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I&#8217;m not entirely clear on your position here. It seems like you&#8217;re arguing that a minority segment of the population should be satisfied with second-class treatment because the alternative is shaking up the traditional ideas of bigots. </p>
<p>But you can&#8217;t possibly mean that, can you? You&#8217;re a libertarian, right? Someone who believes in equality and freedom for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. Right?
</p>
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		<title>by: E5</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-14980</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-14980</guid>
					<description>I'm torn on gay marriage.

Is giving more people the right to walk into some gov't office, and walk out with added privileges, a step in the right direction?

What about those of us who want said privileges and aren't willing to get married heterosexually or homosexually?

Why can't i give some of these benefits to a platonic friend without getting the furors, edit: governors, permission:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_and_responsibilities_of_marriages_in_the_United_States




The entirety of state-sponsored marriage reminds me of the false-rumor of where the word FUCK came from or a form of "seniorage".  Rumor has it the king owned all virgins under his domain and in order to take ones virginity you had to get his permission.  (supposedly not true - http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/fuck.asp)

So now I need state sponsorship to make sure my friendship is "good enough" for the state to let me leave my social security to my friend?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m torn on gay marriage.</p>
<p>Is giving more people the right to walk into some gov&#8217;t office, and walk out with added privileges, a step in the right direction?</p>
<p>What about those of us who want said privileges and aren&#8217;t willing to get married heterosexually or homosexually?</p>
<p>Why can&#8217;t i give some of these benefits to a platonic friend without getting the furors, edit: governors, permission:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_and_responsibilities_of_marriages_in_the_United_States" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_and_responsibilities_of_marriages_in_the_United_States</a></p>
<p>The entirety of state-sponsored marriage reminds me of the false-rumor of where the word FUCK came from or a form of &#8220;seniorage&#8221;.  Rumor has it the king owned all virgins under his domain and in order to take ones virginity you had to get his permission.  (supposedly not true - <a href="http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/fuck.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/fuck.asp</a>)</p>
<p>So now I need state sponsorship to make sure my friendship is &#8220;good enough&#8221; for the state to let me leave my social security to my friend?
</p>
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		<title>by: Brain</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-14955</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 02:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-14955</guid>
					<description>The basic underlying motive against legalizing gay marriage is the same one against incest - it's disgusting.  The posturing and philosophizing by gay-marriage opponents are mostly a screen for this visceral reaction.   It is also a fundamental axiom of modern economics that one can't argue with taste, or dis-taste, as the case is here.

It's funny how gay marriage, when it has been legitimized, has always been initiated by "activist" judges, while popular initiatives have &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_legislation_in_the_United_States_by_state" rel="nofollow"&gt;banned or severely curtailed gay-marriage in most states&lt;/a&gt;.  Similarly, the right to privately enjoy gay or other deviant sex, as well as pornography, is another right rendered by judicial activism, tied to the "created" notions of a right to privacy and conscience, much as is the right to abortion rendered by Roe v. Wade.  It is also unthinkable that without the judicial fiat invalidating sodomy laws, that open homosexual conduct would have gained the wider societal acceptance that was a necessary precursor to legitimatizing gay marriage.  Let's face it, twenty, or even ten years ago, the notion of legally homosexual marriage was an absurdity.

It was particularly entertaining, in our last debate, to see Mr Knapp hem and haw between supporting Federalism and a woman's right to choose, when the latter is ensured by the former.  As with the Federal interventions that struck down racist Jim Crow laws, one wonders if most Libertarians would really prefer the end of Federalism if it brought about decreased civil liberties.

A very thought-provoking post.  No-one minds a long essay if it is well-written.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The basic underlying motive against legalizing gay marriage is the same one against incest - it&#8217;s disgusting.  The posturing and philosophizing by gay-marriage opponents are mostly a screen for this visceral reaction.   It is also a fundamental axiom of modern economics that one can&#8217;t argue with taste, or dis-taste, as the case is here.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s funny how gay marriage, when it has been legitimized, has always been initiated by &#8220;activist&#8221; judges, while popular initiatives have <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_legislation_in_the_United_States_by_state" rel="nofollow">banned or severely curtailed gay-marriage in most states</a>.  Similarly, the right to privately enjoy gay or other deviant sex, as well as pornography, is another right rendered by judicial activism, tied to the &#8220;created&#8221; notions of a right to privacy and conscience, much as is the right to abortion rendered by Roe v. Wade.  It is also unthinkable that without the judicial fiat invalidating sodomy laws, that open homosexual conduct would have gained the wider societal acceptance that was a necessary precursor to legitimatizing gay marriage.  Let&#8217;s face it, twenty, or even ten years ago, the notion of legally homosexual marriage was an absurdity.</p>
<p>It was particularly entertaining, in our last debate, to see Mr Knapp hem and haw between supporting Federalism and a woman&#8217;s right to choose, when the latter is ensured by the former.  As with the Federal interventions that struck down racist Jim Crow laws, one wonders if most Libertarians would really prefer the end of Federalism if it brought about decreased civil liberties.</p>
<p>A very thought-provoking post.  No-one minds a long essay if it is well-written.
</p>
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		<title>by: Koli</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-14951</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-14951</guid>
					<description>I meant Article 4, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant Article 4, of course.
</p>
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		<title>by: Koli</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-14950</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/06/07/the-gay-marriage-question-plus-drugs-and-grey-areas/#comment-14950</guid>
					<description>What usually worries people about non-recognition of same sex union are the things that are allocated by operation of law in the absence of a contract: inheritance, medical decision making powers and visitation rights; some services provided by government (for those who are ok with that sort of thing)... we all know the list. But why should the government have to prefer _romantic_ relationships? What if I live with an adult family member (like a sibling or parent) or even a really good friend (a platonic life partner)? What if _that's_ my family? Why can't I get them covered under my insurance? 

To the extent the law still discriminates in favor of sexual partners, expanding it from heterosexual partners to all sexual partners is at least a start. And any attempt to limit homosexuals is a start in the wrong direction. 

The problem with DOMA is that it carves out an exception from the Article 5 guarantee that states will recognize contracts made in other states,  such that no state has to honor that guarantee when it comes to marriage contracts (validly entered in other states) by same sex couples.  Certainly not as bad as a constitutional ban. But it is pretty bad (not to mention unconstitutional).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What usually worries people about non-recognition of same sex union are the things that are allocated by operation of law in the absence of a contract: inheritance, medical decision making powers and visitation rights; some services provided by government (for those who are ok with that sort of thing)&#8230; we all know the list. But why should the government have to prefer _romantic_ relationships? What if I live with an adult family member (like a sibling or parent) or even a really good friend (a platonic life partner)? What if _that&#8217;s_ my family? Why can&#8217;t I get them covered under my insurance? </p>
<p>To the extent the law still discriminates in favor of sexual partners, expanding it from heterosexual partners to all sexual partners is at least a start. And any attempt to limit homosexuals is a start in the wrong direction. </p>
<p>The problem with DOMA is that it carves out an exception from the Article 5 guarantee that states will recognize contracts made in other states,  such that no state has to honor that guarantee when it comes to marriage contracts (validly entered in other states) by same sex couples.  Certainly not as bad as a constitutional ban. But it is pretty bad (not to mention unconstitutional).
</p>
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