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	<title>Comments on: Science vs. God</title>
	<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/</link>
	<description>Conservatism for punks.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 14:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.9</generator>

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		<title>by: Todd Seavey</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11792</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11792</guid>
					<description>I can examine their arguments, though, or their refusal to make any -- but I will try not to browbeat them too much anyway.

But this might be a good point for me to turn to the topic of moderation, so I'll post a new entry about that in several hours (after partying with an economist, in keeping with my role).

And Tuesday night, if all goes as planned, it just so happens I am scheduled to post a review of the novel _The Sparrow_ (which I haven't finished yet, so don't give anything away!), my fourth February Book Selection, which does indeed concern (very intelligent and likable) Jesuits encountering extraterrestrials.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can examine their arguments, though, or their refusal to make any &#8212; but I will try not to browbeat them too much anyway.</p>
<p>But this might be a good point for me to turn to the topic of moderation, so I&#8217;ll post a new entry about that in several hours (after partying with an economist, in keeping with my role).</p>
<p>And Tuesday night, if all goes as planned, it just so happens I am scheduled to post a review of the novel _The Sparrow_ (which I haven&#8217;t finished yet, so don&#8217;t give anything away!), my fourth February Book Selection, which does indeed concern (very intelligent and likable) Jesuits encountering extraterrestrials.
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		<title>by: MarcS</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11791</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11791</guid>
					<description>Interesting post that takes awhile to get to the crux of the argument, point, which is bascially that the universe is only evidence of the universe.  I'd add that for the universe to be evidence of theism, you have to start looking within the universe for evidence that there was something before the  universe - which there very well could have been, like hyperdimensional aliens (like in Contact! -  a book/movie btw that made me realize the possibility of encountering extraterrestrial life would be enough of a spiritual event to satisfy more than a thousand sundays at church)- but, jeez, it sure is hard to find.  


And you also have to deal with all the evidence that suggests the universe appears to be trying to discourage rational beings from believing in a god - like the absurdity of the major religions being based on self-contradictory, unverifiable, and demonstrably false sacred texts all providing competing advice on what to "believe" in order to establish the magical connection to the "what came before". Take rational Martian (once we make Contact) raised without religion and comfortable with the universe as it's own "first mover" but open to the idea that something may have created all of this - plop him down on earth, introduce him to various religious leaders, have him read all the scared texts - very doubtful he's going to become a convert to anything. 

At the same time, I agree with "Xine's" comment that calling religious types "pathetic, intellectually irresponsible, immoral, mistaken, and stupid" isn't constructive, or very insightful.  Clearly, something in the way our brains evolved made us capable and often inclined to create mental models of the world based on instincts and drives other than reason (lust, intution, imperfect pattern recognition, etc.).  Calling anyone who doesn't lean more on their reason than these other obviously compelling emotional or intuitive mental faculties when dealing with the Big Questions comes across as more than a tad arrogant. Sticking to arguments about why such a belief is mistaken, irresponsible, and (possibly) immoral in the face of absence of evidence for and mountains of evidence against seems the most one can respectfully do and still keep dialogue civil.  History doesn't provide many instances of religious people responding to open hostility with introspection.  And I'd say "pathetic" and "stupid" are value judgments that I don't think you have the right to make as sweeping generalizations unless you can look into any believer's "soul" (or mind) and see that their reason circuitry is indeed faulty or belief is inspired by mental cowardice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post that takes awhile to get to the crux of the argument, point, which is bascially that the universe is only evidence of the universe.  I&#8217;d add that for the universe to be evidence of theism, you have to start looking within the universe for evidence that there was something before the  universe - which there very well could have been, like hyperdimensional aliens (like in Contact! -  a book/movie btw that made me realize the possibility of encountering extraterrestrial life would be enough of a spiritual event to satisfy more than a thousand sundays at church)- but, jeez, it sure is hard to find.  </p>
<p>And you also have to deal with all the evidence that suggests the universe appears to be trying to discourage rational beings from believing in a god - like the absurdity of the major religions being based on self-contradictory, unverifiable, and demonstrably false sacred texts all providing competing advice on what to &#8220;believe&#8221; in order to establish the magical connection to the &#8220;what came before&#8221;. Take rational Martian (once we make Contact) raised without religion and comfortable with the universe as it&#8217;s own &#8220;first mover&#8221; but open to the idea that something may have created all of this - plop him down on earth, introduce him to various religious leaders, have him read all the scared texts - very doubtful he&#8217;s going to become a convert to anything. </p>
<p>At the same time, I agree with &#8220;Xine&#8217;s&#8221; comment that calling religious types &#8220;pathetic, intellectually irresponsible, immoral, mistaken, and stupid&#8221; isn&#8217;t constructive, or very insightful.  Clearly, something in the way our brains evolved made us capable and often inclined to create mental models of the world based on instincts and drives other than reason (lust, intution, imperfect pattern recognition, etc.).  Calling anyone who doesn&#8217;t lean more on their reason than these other obviously compelling emotional or intuitive mental faculties when dealing with the Big Questions comes across as more than a tad arrogant. Sticking to arguments about why such a belief is mistaken, irresponsible, and (possibly) immoral in the face of absence of evidence for and mountains of evidence against seems the most one can respectfully do and still keep dialogue civil.  History doesn&#8217;t provide many instances of religious people responding to open hostility with introspection.  And I&#8217;d say &#8220;pathetic&#8221; and &#8220;stupid&#8221; are value judgments that I don&#8217;t think you have the right to make as sweeping generalizations unless you can look into any believer&#8217;s &#8220;soul&#8221; (or mind) and see that their reason circuitry is indeed faulty or belief is inspired by mental cowardice.
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		<title>by: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11789</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11789</guid>
					<description>So God plays *marbles* with the universe!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So God plays *marbles* with the universe!
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		<title>by: Todd Seavey</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11786</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11786</guid>
					<description>I had that in mind, actually, but didn't think it was a good time to get into the details.  There is a universe full of them, though, and they rock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had that in mind, actually, but didn&#8217;t think it was a good time to get into the details.  There is a universe full of them, though, and they rock.
</p>
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		<title>by: Scott Nybakken</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11785</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11785</guid>
					<description>Todd, if you had cable and watched the proper amount of progamming on the Science Channel, you'd know that the current theory explaining the existence of the Moon is *even cooler* than what you describe above. Many experts now believe that the Earth (or, more accurately, the proto-Earth) was actually struck by a Mars-sized planet early in the solar system's history, and the molten material ejected into orbit following the impact coalesced into the Moon. (That material was primarily from the mantle of the two planets, while the heavier iron from the impactor's core sank and was absorbed into the Earth, resulting in the low iron content of the Moon's core.) More details, as always, can be found in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_impact_hypothesis</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd, if you had cable and watched the proper amount of progamming on the Science Channel, you&#8217;d know that the current theory explaining the existence of the Moon is *even cooler* than what you describe above. Many experts now believe that the Earth (or, more accurately, the proto-Earth) was actually struck by a Mars-sized planet early in the solar system&#8217;s history, and the molten material ejected into orbit following the impact coalesced into the Moon. (That material was primarily from the mantle of the two planets, while the heavier iron from the impactor&#8217;s core sank and was absorbed into the Earth, resulting in the low iron content of the Moon&#8217;s core.) More details, as always, can be found in Wikipedia:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_impact_hypothesis" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_impact_hypothesis</a>
</p>
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		<title>by: Todd Seavey</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11778</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11778</guid>
					<description>Duly noted.  In vaguely related news, Sean Dougherty forwards a reminder that trying to appease the masses with science info is probably a lost cause: WSJ.com notes that a U. Wisconsin survey finds about 30% of Americans say they're morally opposed to...nanotechnology.  Riiiiiiight, and I'm sure Americans really know what they're talking about.  

(They'll know a little bit more if they read my _Reason_ cover story this month ["March"] about nanotech, though.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duly noted.  In vaguely related news, Sean Dougherty forwards a reminder that trying to appease the masses with science info is probably a lost cause: WSJ.com notes that a U. Wisconsin survey finds about 30% of Americans say they&#8217;re morally opposed to&#8230;nanotechnology.  Riiiiiiight, and I&#8217;m sure Americans really know what they&#8217;re talking about.  </p>
<p>(They&#8217;ll know a little bit more if they read my _Reason_ cover story this month [&#8221;March&#8221;] about nanotech, though.)
</p>
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		<title>by: Ken Silber</title>
		<link>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11773</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://toddseavey.com/2008/02/20/science-vs-god/#comment-11773</guid>
					<description>Pleased to see the Galapagos link, Todd, but you give me more credit than I deserve--most of those pics were taken by my wife Brooke, while I was busy taking notes. As for hollowness, we did walk through a lava tube.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pleased to see the Galapagos link, Todd, but you give me more credit than I deserve&#8211;most of those pics were taken by my wife Brooke, while I was busy taking notes. As for hollowness, we did walk through a lava tube.
</p>
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